A Conversation With Old 97’s Frontman Rhett Miller

Rhett Miller didn’t have to go far to find the catharsis that informs his latest release, The Messenger (ATO). Triggered by his son’s advancing age, the Old 97’s frontman exhumed the troubled, borderline suicidal thoughts that bogged down his own 14-year-old psyche. Recorded with Sam Cohen (Kevin Morby, Benjamin Booker) in a five-day spurt at the Isokon in Woodstock, N.Y., Miller’s eighth solo album (if you include his 1994 pre-Old 97’s debut, Mythologies) has a nimble, expansive feel. Cohen’s textured guitar work and the locked-in low end of bassist Brian Betancourt and drummer Ray Rizzo provide an elevated soulfulness that’s been lacking in Miller’s past work, even as the subject matter turns inward toward the soul-baringly personal.

MAGNET recently spoke with Miller about The Messenger’s gumbo of emotions. He also offered his take on the semi-sincere motivation behind Love The Holidays (ATO), the new Old 97’s Christmas album.

Your son is about to turn 15. Apparently, that’s stirred up some memories.
For sure. Our children are nothing if not mirrors of ourselves. We relive the moments that were so hard to live through the first time. Both my kids are so better adapted than I was at their age. Still, it reminds of just how hard it is to be a kid and just how hard it is to be a human being. The world is such a harsh place, and every day is a little bit of a struggle. The 14-year-old version of me came the closest to giving in, but it’s not like that battle ever got won.

What were you battling at the time?
I thought it was a real existential crisis. There was a fundamental meaningless to it all that just floored me. It was about brain chemistry. It was about my parents’ marriage and its long, slow disintegration. It was about me realizing that I was a sensitive, artistic kid.

That’s pretty heavy shit for a 14-year-old.
Yeah, I was precocious. [Laughs]



You basically kicked things with The Instigator in 2002. Since then, you’ve been The Believer, The Interpreter, The Dreamer, The Traveler and now The Messenger.

Yeah, that comes from the bridge from “Human Condition.” It’s a message to myself back when I was so freaked out—me saying, “Hey, it’s worth staying alive, but not in any way that I can really quantify. I can’t show you a photograph of yourself as a perfectly happy and content adult, but I can show you a photo of yourself as someone who’s grateful he didn’t die back then.” I almost called the album The Face Of Danger, but it seemed like a cop-out.

How did you hook up with Sam Cohen?
I talked to a number of young lead singers of bands I really liked—the kid from Car Seat Headrest and Ben from Lord Huron—but the timing wasn’t right for either of those guys. Sam had done a couple of records for my label, ATO, and I really wanted to work with someone who’s an artist first and a producer second. He’s pretty young; he grew up in Houston; he was a rockabilly guitarist; and over the last few years, he’s become this pretty sought-after producer. What he is—and it took me awhile to figure this out—is like a young Jon Brion. Sam really sees the architecture of the music, and he can play anything you can imagine. He wound up being the perfect foil.

The album has a distinct groove throughout.

There’s something about the rhythm section on this album that really blows me away. It’s organic, visceral and raw—that real in-the-pocket groove Ray and Brian have. We immediately heard it during playback.

As you were writing the songs, did you sense that they needed a different treatment in the studio?
When I wrote them, they felt like the ones I was writing in high school. I really wanted to take them somewhere where I would never think to take them. They felt kind of folky to me—all my songs sound kind of folky when I write them. I remember when I wrote “Timebomb,” and I went to (Old 97’s guitarist) Kim Bethea and he said, “Man, that sounds wimpy.” Now, it’s our signature song and set closer, with his signature guitar riff. Songs can become anything, and I’ve been the beneficiary of that for decades.

So, why a holiday album?
Christmas albums are useful—sort of this evergreen quality. I started thinking about the songs we’ve all grown up with and heard too many times, and then I started looking for gaps in the canon. The opening title track is something I wrote with Kevin Russell (Gourds, Shinyribs). He’s such a great writer—and one of the reasons is because he’s got so much soul. Of all my myriad talents, being super-soulful isn’t one that gets brought up a lot. Kevin came up with the idea. It’s joyous, ebullient and fun, but also kind of snotty and snarky. Top to bottom, the album is so fun.

It also looks like you guys had fun with the photo shoot for the album.
It was a sweltering-hot August day in Chicago, and this really nice couple in Evanston—where we were playing a street festival that day—let us use their historic house. It was hot as hell, and we were wearing Christmas sweaters and laughing our asses off. There are some ridiculous photos, including the picture on the back cover where Murry (Hammond) has like eight chins. I would’ve been way too vain to let that picture go, but he was fine with it.

—Hobart Rowland

A Conversation With Fastball’s Miles Zuniga And Tony Scalzo

There really couldn’t have been a more unlikely hit single than Fastball’s “The Way”—especially in the post-grunge cesspool that was 1998. With its delayed chorus, rinky-dink keyboard line and mariachi undertones, the tune was basically an afterthought on All The Pain Money Can Buy, an album of world-weary rock and power pop from a band nobody outside of Texas had ever heard of.

To mark the 20th anniversary of the album’s release, Omnivore has reissued an expanded version of All The Pain Money Can Buy with all the expected demos, b-side and outtakes. Perhaps most impressive is how well it all holds up two decades later. Then again, great songwriting is anything if not durable. MAGNET reached out to Fastball’s Miles Zuniga and Tony Scalzo at home in Austin to discuss the making of All The Pain Money Can Buy, its surprising success and why they never get sick of playing “The Way.”

So how did the reissue come about?
Tony Scalzo: I was on Facebook one day, and I noticed Ronnie (Barnett) from the Muffs had announced that they were putting out a reissue of their debut album, and I was like, “Hey, that sounds like a good idea.” So my manager called Omnivore, and they were like, “Sure, sounds good.” I think we had it all sewn up by the end of the day. The only issue we had with (former label) Hollywood was keeping them on task.

To this day, I’m sure a lot of fans don’t realize—or care—that All The Pain wasn’t your debut. For the record, I actually liked that first album (1996’s Make Your Momma Proud).

Miles Zuniga: It has its charms, but I didn’t think it was that great. There’s a certain cool energy to it, but when we were recording it, there was a lot of pressure to try to put us into a box they could market. Green Day was all the rage, and we were a three piece, too. So they hooked us up with Jerry Finn, who mixed Green Day … That’s the way record companies think.

Everything is so fast on that first album.

Zuniga: It seemed to be an effective way to get people to pay attention, I guess.

Scalzo: We couldn’t pull it off live any other way back then.

It’s so cool to listen to Tony’s demo of “The Way.” It has a quirky Spanish flavor to it.

Scalzo: I didn’t really expect the guys to latch onto the whole keyboard vibe, but they wanted to do it that way—and they were right. I was probably the one who most wanted to conserve the sound of Make Your Momma Proud. Miles was being more progressive, and it was hard for me to break out of certain shells back then. Once we got into the studio, the producer (Julian Raymond) and Miles were like, “Let’s make that loop happen.” And we brought the actual keyboard I used on the demo into the studio.

Zuniga: The song ended up being this gumbo where everyone threw in ideas. Tony wanted to hear it one way; I wanted to hear it another way; Julian had another take on it. But all of us felt intrigued and interested. It led us down this path, and it was really fun to work on. I think that if we’d tried to make it this massive hit song, we would’ve fucked it all up.

How did the song get so big so fast?

Zuniga: It was like an unstoppable beast. I was living in Los Angeles at the time, and I remember driving up to see my sister in Santa Cruz. At the midway point, we stopped at this steakhouse so I could check my messages. I was so broke I didn’t have any kind of a phone. I had this voice mailbox that floated in space, and that day I started getting these calls about stations adding the song. Once K-Rock added it, it was all over. Very quickly, even pop radio stations were adding it. I remember the radio guys saying to us, “You’re doing really well, man, but don’t get too excited. You’ve got some big boys ahead of you … You’ve got Pearl Jam, Green Day, whatever.” We just blew right past all of them—I couldn’t believe it. That tune was really a force of nature.
Scalzo: There was the weird novelty of how it was recorded—the radio thing at the beginning, the tinny first verse. Then it explodes sonically in the second verse, and then the chorus finally comes along. It takes you from a minor verse into what Leonard Cohen described as the major lift. It makes your senses wake up.

Zuniga: More often than not, hit songs are unusual, intriguing, different. We still love doing “The Way” live. It’s a fun song to play.

Was it intended to be the album’s centerpiece?

Scalzo: We thought it was a b-side.
Zuniga: It came along almost last in the song selection. Stuff like “Fire Escape” and “Warm Fuzzy Feeling” were more indicative of where our heads were at—loud guitar music. We thought “Sooner Or Later” would be the hit song, which shows you how much we knew. Luckily, there were other people around us who were pointing to “The Way.”

At the time, you were being introduced as this new act. But if you listen to the themes on the album, they’re coming from the perspective of a band who’s been there, done that.

Zuniga: Well, we thought we were gonna get dropped. The only reason we got to do another record was because the president of Hollywood got fired. Someone asked the de facto president if we could do another record, and he was like, “Sure, whatever. I’m probably not gonna be here in a few months anyway.” Our mental state was, one, we’re probably not going to be able to do this again and, two, they probably won’t even put it out.

If the situation wasn’t as dire, do you think you would’ve made the same record?

Zuniga: The album would’ve sucked, I think. [Laughs]

Scalzo: There was no pressure, and the producer and the A&R guy were our buddies. It was like nobody cared. Like, “You can use the studio—just lock up when you’re done.”

Zuniga: There was a magical thing about it. I haven’t had a recording experience quite like that since.

And the album still sounds fresh today.

Zuniga: There’s no DJ on there toasting, and there’s no one mumbling, “I hate myself, and I want to die.”
Scalzo: Yeah, that whole period reeked of this fake drama-queen vibe. Everything was just so passionate, and it was so lame. We did it fairly deadpan.
Zuniga: Coming from Austin, Texas, all that stuff was all bullshit. 
We were coming from a totally different perspective. I was 30 years old at the time, and my heroes were Joe Ely and people like that. I like the Beatles and Badfinger, but I also like Jimmy Vaughan and the Paladins and the Fabulous Thunderbirds. That was the restaurant I was eatin’ at, and I didn’t really care about that other shit.
Scalzo: I was coming from a Southern California DIY environment, where that shit wouldn’t fly.

What about the post-success hangover that came with the follow-up (The Harsh Light Of Day)?
Zuniga: There was just all this pressure that wasn’t there before. We didn’t work hard enough and didn’t write enough songs. We’d been touring for two years, and we didn’t take any time off. We finished touring in October, and we were in the studio in January.
Scalzo: I was sort of detached; complacency had set in. I’d managed to write a few songs that had gotten successful, but I still didn’t have any real grip on writing—and Miles and I hadn’t done any writing together. He seemed to really know what he wanted, and just deferred to him. I thought our success was something that was there and would just stay in place.
Zuniga: The band has gotten into such a wonderful spot now. But then it was a lot more competitive and not as collaborative and supportive. When I look back on our career and myself as an artist, I realize that I just didn’t have the skills yet to do the things I wanted to do. I just couldn’t pull it off.
Scalzo: And we didn’t have any showbiz skills, either. We should’ve gotten our heads together and formed some solidarity—but we didn’t. We responded to success differently. I reacted in an extreme way. It was really weird for me and hard to manage psychologically. I like the way things are right now. I like to be able to go wherever I want and not have people be like, “Oh my God.” And for a little while there, it really happened that way.


Anything new coming?

Zuniga: We have a new album in the works, but we don’t know when it’s coming out.
Scalzo: It’s our Chinese Democracy. [Laughs]

—Hobart Rowland



A Conversation With Jethro Tull’s Ian Anderson

A half-century later, does Jethro Tull warrant some reassessment? Most of the pre-1979 evidence points to the affirmative. Murky production flaws aside, early Tull retains its considerable charm as a substantive, challenging stew of blues, Anglo folk and hard rock. Benefiting hugely from a 2011 remastering, remix and expansion for its 40th anniversary, Aqualung is still the most flawless distillation of the English band’s ruggedly dynamic, elegantly verbose aesthetic. Simply put, it doesn’t sound like anything else released in 1971, which was an especially robust year for classic rock. Taking it a step further a year later, Thick As A Brick’s album-length song cycle is a prog-rock archetype (for better or worse), validating the group’s arena-headliner status for the rest of the decade.

All of which left Tull’s flute-wielding leader, Ian Anderson, with very little traction in the years following the punk explosion. Anderson has nonetheless pressed on as other band members have fallen away, lending orchestral legitimacy to the group’s compositions with recent projects featuring string-quartet accompaniment. 

MAGNET caught up with Anderson in the U.K., where he was taking a break from a 50th anniversary tour of the States that kicked off in late May in Arizona and ends next month in Connecticut. At the behest of his handlers, we steered clear of anything on the “All Too Frequently Asked Questions” list posted on Anderson’s website—heady journalistic stuff like: “In 1976, you named a famous Tull track ‘Too Old To Rock And Roll.’ What do you feel about this title, looking back on it now?”

MAGNET’s conclusion: You’re never too old to rock ‘n’ roll—and, at 71, Anderson ain’t dead yet.

Aqualung remains one of those LPs that no self-respecting rock-history buff can be without. How do you feel about the album—and perhaps even the song itself—being the sole representation of Jethro Tull for many people?
If you were calling me from Germany, you’d be asking me that question about “Locomotive Breath.” If it was France, it would “Bourée.” There are those pieces that have risen to the fore in certain countries, but not necessarily in others. Certainly the first 10 years of Jethro Tull is when most fans and record buyers around the world got to know us. That material, for them, will always represent the starting point.

Hence, all the reissues.
No one wants to hear new new Jethro Tull music—they want hear new old Jethro Tull music. But it’s natural to want to go back and explore rock history, even if you’re a 15-year-old rock fan in Brazil. 

Among those reissues, the 2016 Stand Up (The Elevated Edition) boxed set is a real highlight. How did the whole Steven Wilson remix come about?
Around the time of the 40th anniversary of the Aqualung album, I approached Steven to see if he’d do it. I knew him for the work he’d done remixing the first King Crimson album. It was obvious from the way he worked that his method was not to replicate the original mix, but to use that as a starting point as he fine-tuned everything and tidied it up. I was pleased with the end was result on Aqualung, and we’ve carried on working together intimately over the years. We’re currently working on the Stormwatch album.

On the original recordings, there was a significant spike in production quality from Stand Up to Aqualung.
Well, in terms of the songwriting and the variety of music, there’s always going to be some evolution with any band. Aqualung actually wasn’t an easy one to do. We were working in what was then Island Records’ brand-new studio, which was a converted church in West London, and there were lots of issues with acoustics. It was very unforgiving, harsh and hard. Zeppelin was in Island’s basement studio, and they had a much better sound. It was not an enjoyable period of recording at all for us. The end result wasn’t something I was very fond of, in terms of the multi-track master tapes and the mixing. To me, it wasn’t a great-sounding album, but we did what we could. 

The liner notes to the Stand Up boxed set describe how you were essentially creating music in a vacuum—that you were fairly isolated. Is that normal for you when writing?
I like to do things privately. I like to be able to explore without interaction from anybody else until I think I’ve got something that’s worth sharing. And at that point, it’s baring your soul, so you better think you really have something to say before you say it.

In a recent discussion with a British friend about the rise of punk in the late ’70s, he talked about this immense pressure in the U.K. to disavow any affection for classic rock acts like Zeppelin, Yes and Jethro Tull. What are your thoughts on that period?
When the Clash, the Sex Pistols and that whole brigade of British punk bands came about in the wake of the Ramones, it was a movement that lasted only a little while—it evolved very quickly. Then you had bands like the Police and the Stranglers, and they owed more to progressive rock, though they took on some of punk’s trappings because that was their entre into making a living in music at the time. On more than one occasion, Johnny Rotten has cited that Aqualung was a huge influence on him as a young wannabe musician. People tend to want to divide things up, put them in neat little boxes on the shelf, and say, “This is for that, and this is for that.” In the real world, people are much more capable of thinking across the broad spectrum of different genres.

The flute’s status in the rock world pretty much begins and ends with you. Why do you think no one else has given it a real shot?
One reason is that it’s a delicate instrument that’s not easy to play in the context of loud rock music. Secondly, if you were to become a flute player in a rock band right now, inevitably people would be comparing you to me. In a way, it’s kind of a thankless task—to realize you’re always going to have that millstone around your neck of the endless comparisons. It’s probably easier for me because I’m a songwriter, so I can integrate the flute into what I do. When I play on other people’s records, it always causes me a bit of trepidation. I wonder whether the flute really belongs there—if there’s something useful I can do that will add to the music. I always tell people, “Don’t pay me, and don’t be afraid to hit the delete button. Then it’s gone forever. I’ll get on with my life, you get on with yours, and no money has changed hands.”

—Hobart Rowland

A Conversation With Robert Pollard Biographer Matthew Cutter

Here’s a tip for any aspiring biographer hoping to chronicle the life of their favorite musician: Befriend him/her and, preferably over beers, ask. Hey, it worked for Matthew Cutter, author of Closer You Are: The Story Of Robert Pollard And Guided By Voices, released today by Da Capo Press. (Full disclosure: I edited an early draft.) The Pollard-approved tome is a must read for GBV fanboys and anyone interested in how a normal dude from Dayton, Ohio, developed into one of rock ‘n’ roll’s greatest songwriters. Cutter answered a few hard-hitting questions about the book’s genesis—and what Pollard thinks of the finished product.

When did you first hear a Bob Pollard song? What was it? Did the song hook you immediately?
“I Am A Tree” playing in a Boulder, Colo., record store in ’97, followed by “The Old Grunt.” During the next song, “Bulldog Skin,” I asked the clerk what it was. and he handed me Mag Earwhig!. I was instantly hooked, and went back for more albums a few days later. Been hooked ever since.

What is it about his music that created and sustains your fandom?
I’m primarily a lyrics guy, so the allusions and mystery and multiple meanings Bob plays with intrigue me. It’s similar in a lot of ways to what Joyce did with language. And I come from a Beatles/classic-rock background, so I think I’m wired for the types of songs and indelible melodies Pollard writes—even though he always manages to surprise. His music is familiar without ever being predictable.

You’d been acquainted with Bob prior to writing the book. How did the idea come about?
At a Dayton bar, in the midst of an afternoon of drinking and bullshitting, I just asked Bob if I could write a book about him. I honestly didn’t give much thought at that time as to whether or how I would do it.

Was he hesitant at all?
He took a few months to think it over. And with good reason; I didn’t have a whole lot of mainstream writing credits to go on. It was a risk for him.

What was your reaction when he gave his blessing?
Primarily gratitude for an amazing, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. And joyful surprise, followed by mortal fear. I mean, it’s an honor and an immense pleasure, but I also knew I had a huge responsibility to Bob and Guided By Voices fans. As Bob has said, “When you get your shot, you have to rise to the challenge.” So that became my goal.

Bob’s a really nice guy, but he’s had moments of, let’s say, a mercurial nature when it comes to the band. A couple of those are in the book; were you wary of including them?
No, because Bob has always taken a pragmatic view of those stories: They’re the truth. They’re what happened. Bob’s often self-deprecating, and I think he’d prefer to put a truthful, good story out there rather than a hagiography. He’s complex, like most people, but at his core he’s just an honest, generous person. His stage persona is certainly part of his personality, but it’s not even close to all of it.

What was his reaction when he read the book? What was your reaction to his reaction?
He had a bunch of corrections, naturally, so I braced for the worst throughout that process. But then he exclaimed, as I recall, “Three, two, one … book!” and told me he liked it. I was flabbergasted. I had a few drinks to celebrate. That was the first moment I thought, “Holy shit, maybe I can pull this off.”

Since you had a relationship with Bob prior to the book, did that make it easier or more difficult to write it? I guess what I’m getting at is you’re a fan and a friend and not an objective observer.
That was a concern at times, but as mentioned earlier, Bob made it easy. You know the journalistic idea of a “nose-picker”? That is, adding character details that are not necessarily flattering but help to humanize the subject? Bob was always OK with including those if they were true. So I hope the book presents a well-rounded view of Robert Pollard as a person, but in the end I’d want his good nature to shine through. Otherwise it would be like when Albert Goldman spent years writing that hack job on John Lennon—what an absolute waste of time and effort, just to tear someone down.

Diehard fans are going to love the book. Did you have any sense while writing it that it could have a broader appeal? Or is it really for them?
The lyrical analysis and detailed accounts of live shows are definitely for the diehards. But I think there’s also a broader appeal for anyone who’s struggled to make creativity and art the center of their lives. American society is not generally set up to appreciate or support creative, artistic efforts unless they generate millions of dollars. So for me Bob’s story is as timeless as that of Pinocchio; it’s the idea of a dream that survives all its struggles to become reality.

Given the speed that Bob works—he’s prolific, you know—how did you decide where to end the book?
That he is! We talked about that early on, and agreed that the book should be “a good read,” with a satisfying arc to the story. The Electrifying Conclusion (2004) ended up being a new phase of Bob’s career rather than the end, but we felt that was the natural place to drop the curtain. When Geppetto’s puppet turned into a real boy, so to speak.

Related to that, any plans or ideas for a follow-up?
I’d love to do a revision/expansion down the road that covers more of Bob’s solo work and side projects, and especially explores the band’s current incarnation in more detail. But there are no plans for that right now. I’d recommend that anyone on the fence about seeing GBV catch them on this tour. They’re going like gangbusters and blowing the doors off every club they hit.

There had to be things that you left out. Give MAGNET readers an exclusive anecdote that didn’t make the final cut.
One of my favorites is alluded to in the Circus Devils song, “Sunflower Wildman.” Summer of 1968, Bob, (his brother) Jimmy and their friend Emmett came upon a large cherry tree in someone’s front yard, branches bowed with fruit. They crept up to it. No one emerged from the house, so they started slamming these cherries. The juices, cool and sweet, popped in their mouths. They gorged themselves.

A hollering man appeared on the front porch. The boys fled to their bikes. “No, wait!” the man yelled. “Come back! It’s OK!” They paused. “Let me show you something.” He pulled a cherry off the tree and broke it open with his fingers. In the remnants writhed a plump, bright green fruit worm nearly as big as the cherry had been. The boys blanched. “Probably just that one,” the man remarked. “Let’s try another.” He proceeded to pluck 30 or 40 cherries, and none lacked a writhing parasite at its heart. “Oh, I guess it’s the whole tree.” He smiled. “You boys take care now!” Bob thought he might puke. Like the song says: “Don’t eat the cherries from Oscular’s tree/Filled with green larvae, as they simply wouldn’t agree.”

—Matt Hickey

Exclusive Cover Story Excerpt: The Breeders Interviewed By Actor Elijah Wood

Here’s an exclusive excerpt of the current MAGNET cover story. To read the whole thing, order a copy of the issue here.

Interview by Elijah Wood

Photos by Jon Enoch

A quarter century after releasing the platinum-selling Last Splash and then drifting into an on-again/off-again period, the classic lineup of the Breeders is back with the aptly titled All Nerve, rocking like it’s 1993 all over again. Elijah Wood sits down with Kim and Kelley Deal to illuminate everything.

Elijah Wood: Like so many, when I first heard the Breeders in the summer of 1993 (I came to discover 1990’s Pod later), my ears were struck by the opening clack of Jim Macpherson’s drumsticks as intro to Josephine Wiggs’ iconic bass line of “Cannonball.” I was hooked. These four musicians, led by the singular voice of Kim Deal, stood out then—and remain now—as a band very much its own: sonically vital, idiosyncratic and incredibly special. I was honored to be asked by MAGNET to chat with Kim and Kelley Deal over the phone about their beautiful new album, All Nerve (4AD), the first with this lineup since Last Splash 25 years ago. Enjoy and rejoice that these fine folks are coming to a city near you and continuing to share their music with us! And check out Kim’s solo seven-inch project for an early version of “Walking With A Killer”

Elijah Wood: Where are you right now?
Kelley Deal: I’m in Dayton, Ohio, in my house.
Elijah: Oh, nice.
Kim Deal: Not really. I’m in Florida and sitting in a bay on the Atlantic Ocean in Summerland Key, in the lower Keys north of Key West.
Elijah: That sounds so lovely. Are you on vacation?
Kim: Yes. We started coming down here. You know, my dad used to come down here all the time, every year. And then he got old and needed help, so me and Kelley would grudgingly come down here. I don’t know about Kelley, but I hate the beach and laying out in the sun.
Elijah: I’ve never understood that, either. It only seems like kind of a weird waste of time.
Kim: It’s a punishment.
Elijah: Yeah. I’m good with swimming. I love to swim in the ocean, but the idea of laying out a blanket and reading a book or just lying there just seems … I have the same relationship with baths.
Kim: Oh, yeah. [Laughs]
Elijah: I just feel like after 15 minutes, I’m bored with it. And I overheat, and I need to get out of it.
Kelley: Yeah. We have similar coloration, don’t we? We’re kinda light skinned like that.
Elijah: Maybe it’s just not in our blood.
Kim: Yeah.
Elijah: Um, your new record is really incredible. I was so pleased when they sent it to me. I didn’t know that I was gonna get a chance to look into it before talking to you, but it’s so good. How did it come together? I know that you all reformed the Last Splash lineup for the reunion tour. Is that kind of how you all came back together?
Kelley: Exactly. I was sitting on my couch with my sister. Kim was visiting me. It was 2012. I commented, you know, “Next year is 2013. It will be 20 years since Last Splash, it will be the anniversary. Should we, like, give a show? We could invite Jim and Josephine and could just play the record and maybe just do a show or do a couple of shows or something.” And Kim said, “Sure. You invite Jim, and I’ll talk to Josephine.” And so we did, and everybody was game for it. They texted right back and said, “Sounds awesome.” That kind of started that. That was sometime in the summer of 2012, and we played our first show at the Bell House in Brooklyn in March of 2013. That started the ball rolling.
Elijah: It obviously felt really good to be back together again as a band because it clearly led to this album. When did the conversation begin about recording something new together?
Kim: Well, at first we’re just concentrating on, “OK, this song goes into this song. This song goes into this song. How are we gonna do ‘Mad Lucas’?” So a lot of that time, you know, it wasn’t that … It was something like eight months of touring from March to the end, but then as the touring was getting a little farther in, it’s sounding really good and people are enjoying it so much. It was a London Forum show where people were so happy to see us, and there was a booking agent that’s just, like, “Man, have you guys thought to do another record? You really should. This was a really incredible night.” And our friends were saying, “You guys need to play more.” And, of course, we think, “This is sounding good.” So we began to go and do things.
Elijah: Wow. Then with Kim’s seven-inch series … I’m trying to figure out the timeline. Was that happening concurrently?
Kim: Yes, the first seven-inch, which was “Walking With A Killer,” came out, like, Jan. 1, 2013. I had some other ones, in different stages of completion, ready to go. Now, I have another one ready to go, but I haven’t manufactured the seven-inch yet. I thought I would put them all together as an album maybe.
Elijah: Oh, that’s a cool idea.
Kim: Yeah, I thought maybe I could do something like that. But yeah, it was happening concurrently. And what’s one of the ones we’ve … Josephine and Kelley said that they really liked the “Walking With A Killer” song, and I knew other than you, Elijah, and a couple of other people, not a lot of people have heard of the song, you know. So we started playing that one live, and it just sounded so big and lush.
Elijah: Yeah, that sounded good.
Kim: I’d never played it live with a band. It was always done in pieces, because it was a solo thing.
Elijah: That was ultimately how you all decided to record that for the album: just playing it live.
Kim: Yeah, I was just like, “Oh my God, we should do this one.”
Elijah: That’s so great.
Kelley: It’s interesting. I’m sitting here thinking about all those songs on there, and there are so many that I would do: “Range On Castle,” “Dirty Hessians,” “Likkle More,” “Biker Gone.” There’s so many that I would love to play live because these songs don’t get a chance. But you know what’s interesting about that is just this band—like Josephine, she really liked “Walking.” I don’t know that she didn’t like the others. They’re not the ones that spoke to her, I guess. It’s interesting how in this particular band, the push and pull is different. It’s interesting to me ’cause I’m sitting here thinking, “I’d love to do ‘Range On Castle.’ Oh, it’s so awesome.” But I gotta respect what she sees. That’s what makes this different than the last thing or the solo series. It’s really interesting how that works out. It’s fascinating.
Elijah: The thing of a group of people coming together as a band is different than an individual person writing a song. Under the auspices of the band, it’s seemingly a democratic process. And therefore, it is. It totally is. It’s fascinating. The thing of those voices coming together as one making the band what it is for whatever reason.
Kelley: Yeah. Jim Macpherson is working a full-time job, and Josephine is very busy doing her stuff: soundtrack work and art-installation work. She’s like a little scientist up in Brooklyn doing her stuff. So you would think that here we are—we’re doing this and we’re offered that. I love the idea that Kim or Josephine can say, “It’s a deal.” Or, “No, no. I don’t wanna do that.” It wasn’t until recently that I thought, “You know, a lot of people wouldn’t do that with Kim.” They would just say, “Whatever you want,” you know? It’s interesting.
Elijah: I think that’s what makes the Breeders the Breeders: the combination of those voices.
Kelley: Exactly, yeah. It’s true.
Elijah: There’s another song that you all re-recorded, I think it was on (2002’s) Title TK. You recorded the Amps song “Full On Idle.” What was the thought process behind that?
Kim: Nobody knew the Amps record (1995’s Pacer) when it was out.
Elijah: That seems crazy to me.
Kim: But it’s true though, right?
Elijah: Yeah, I guess so.
Kim: So, it felt like nobody had heard it anyway, and sometimes a beautiful song could be done better. That was really the main thing. We were playing it live, and it sounded so much better. Maybe it’s not a really great thing to do, but I couldn’t stop myself. And the same with “Hoverin’” on the b-side of “Divine Hammer.” It’s just me and Kelley just going into a demo studio and doing it together for fun. I ended up using it as the b-side because I thought it sounded really cool, so rickety. I thought it could be done way better. So me and Jim did it with (Steve) Albini for the Amps record. Were you there, Kel?
Kelley: With Albini? Yes, I was.
Elijah: Speaking of the legendary engineer/record handyman … He recorded some of the new record as well, right?
Kim: Yeah. OK, here’s the thing with Albini, I think. When you go to a studio with him, it’s not sort of a place where you can workshop an idea out or anything. There’s definitely spaces on a song that don’t sound good. [Laughs] For instance, there can be a song that I can think of that it’s not the greatest part, but if we get the guitars distorted enough or whatever, it’ll sound OK. I don’t know. There’s things like that where these things worked. But with Albini, the recording process is so revealing of what’s happening, and he takes it to the basics. So at every level, it can’t just be … I can’t cringe anywhere in the song with Albini.
Elijah: He’s sort of notorious for that, isn’t he? He’s kind of the person who refuses to be called a producer. He refuses to take that producing credit, and he’s just there to filter whatever the band is bringing them without any … I’ve heard that he notoriously doesn’t offer any kind of thoughts necessarily, right?
Kim: Right. Well, he would, you know, refer to himself as a plumber.
Elijah: Right. [Laughs]
Kim: If you want a good recording of what you’re doing in the studio, out in the room, he will give you the best recording that he’s capable of doing. And he approaches everything professionally. He will make you sound exactly like you sound, and sometimes that’s not good.
Elijah: If your idea or if your song is not as fully fleshed out as you’d like it to be, then it can showcase some of the work that you weren’t keen to experience.
Kim: It could. On the other hand, he does like to say that he doesn’t like to influence anybody’s recording and artistic decisions. But at the same time, with “All Nerve,” I definitely had a harmony that I wanted to do to that part of a song, and I got some pushback. “You don’t need a harmony.” But whenever I wanna double something, he’ll say, “It just sounds better single here.” But sometimes, he likes to listen to the damaged fragility of a single vocal. He finds that way more compelling than he would find a voice like Adele that’s beautiful. Not that she’s not doing a damaged beautiful vocal. I’m not saying that.
Elijah: He’s not looking for perfection. He just wants the naked, revealing recording of the band.
Kim: Which is sometimes extremely, exactly what I don’t wanna do. But in the end, he’s always right. He really is always right. It’s really ridiculous how right he usually is. It’s frustrating.